Veteran journalist Bob Woodward has already published three books based on his extensive interviews with former US President Donald Trump. Now he wants people to hear those conversations for themselves. Woodward is a Washington Post contributing editor who has covered 10 US presidents over 50 years. His reporting on the Watergate scandal, along with his colleague Carl Bernstein, was instrumental in the downfall of former President Richard Nixon. But Woodward says he has never met a president like Trump. His new audiobook, The Trump Tapes, allows listeners to listen to recordings of interviews conducted with the former Republican president for his three books: Fear, Rage and Peril. Here’s part of Woodward’s conversation with As It Happens host Nil Köksal. Mr. Woodward, I wonder what value you think there is in listening to Donald Trump in this way, through these tapes that you have released, given that we have heard so much—and continue to hear so much—from Mr. Trump, the same; This is different because I was able to interrogate him and follow him with questions, sometimes a dozen or two dozen times. And so that really focused on key issues like the virus, race relations, foreign affairs. And, as you know, civil servants do not like to be repeatedly asked about a subject, and I managed to do it. So you not only hear him, but you see the evasions and the denials and the insistence on a number of things that are simply not true. [In one clip from the audiobook] you ask Mr. Trump if he has given [North Korean Leader] Kim [Jong-un] too much power. He says, “If he shoots, he shoots.” So what goes through your mind at that moment when you hear him say that? The whole theory and operation of nuclear deterrence is [that] … using nuclear weapons, as we now see Putin threatening in Ukraine, is unthinkable. But here Trump is being a bit flippant – again, it’s in the tone of voice – “If he shoots, he shoots.” As if it is of no great consequence. Chairman [Joe] Biden now talks about Putin and nuclear weapons, and Biden says, “He’s not kidding,” taking this very seriously, as he should. And so there is a kind of casual behavior that is dangerous. And the people on the national security team for Trump, as I say, were traumatized. Bob Woodward’s audiobook, The Trump Tapes, follows his three books about the former US president: Fear, Rage and Danger. (Simon & Schuster) If we can go back a bit to the midterm elections of 1974, after President Nixon resigned, the Republicans lost 49 seats in the House at that time and five seats in the Senate… If the polls are correct and the voters stick with the Republicans after what we saw with January 6, you know, that somehow they didn’t do after Watergate. So why do you think this is? After Watergate, of course, it was a huge setback for the Republican Party because of their relationship with Nixon. And if you look at that period almost 50 years ago, the Republican Party rose up against Nixon and forced him to resign. And now we’re seeing the Republican Party latching onto Trump, almost everywhere in a way that I think is unheard of. As I was doing these interviews with Trump, I was reminded of that again [of] a piece of history. Back in 1978, David Frost, the talk show host, interviewed Nixon on these Frost-Nixon tapes that are part of history. But at that time, Nixon could not run again. Trump can run again. He has told people close to him: I’m going… to do it. So we’re going to have someone who was president four years ago, who learned where the levers of power were [are]run again — and definitely, possibly, elected. So my goal here is to provide as much information about Trump as possible [as possible]. And when you hear it in his own voice, it’s different and comprehensive. We covered all the issues and you see clearly how he lied about the coronavirus, saying it was under control, telling me repeatedly, saying [it] to the audience. And at one point in one of those interviews, 140,000 Americans had died from the virus. [It] It took me weeks and months of reporting to find out that Trump got a warning from his national security adviser that I’ve never heard of being given to a president. It’s Robert O’Brien and you can hear it on the tapes. You can hear O’Brien recounting how he told the president: This virus is going to be the biggest national security threat to your presidency. Since the news broke that you would release these tapes, Mr. Trump has called you a “loose guy.” He threatened to sue you. At least that’s what he says publicly. In the audiobook, point out that he was friendly and cooperative with you in private, even after he made public statements about the books you wrote, condemning the books you had written about him before. Are you still in direct contact with Mr. Trump now? I don’t talk to him. He said these interviews were all on the disc, recorded with his knowledge. If you listen to him, you’ll often hear him say, “Now, you’ve got your recorder on, haven’t you?” We agreed that all of this will be public. I don’t believe a sitting president can talk to a reporter other than on the record. But it does say some things. For example, at one point, he insists that he knows most about Kim Jong-un’s nuclear facilities in North Korea. And, again, he’s the one who says he’s the one who knows… not because he’s studied them in depth, but he says he has an uncle who worked at MIT. And so Trump said to me, you’ll hear it on these tapes: So I understand these things, you know, genetically. Meaning, somehow, he thinks the smart uncle who worked at MIT passed on something to Trump that makes him an authority to talk about and judge Kim’s big nuclear facilities. I mean, I’ve never heard of such a thing, let alone imagined it. Genetically! You have asked Mr. Trump many, many questions over many hours. But if you were to get back in touch, if I were to interview Trump tomorrow, is there one question you’d like to ask him now more than any other? In these tapes the important thing is that I ask 600 questions, not one. And I think asking a question is not the answer. You want to watch them. Historians who will be writing about Trump for decades [will ask]: Who was he? Where did it come from? How did he win? Why did he lose in 2020? Henry Kissinger, who was Nixon’s national security adviser and his secretary of state, once said of history and the great figures in it that: “What amazing vehicles fate chooses to accomplish its design.” Whether you like Trump or not, there’s no denying that he’s a great vehicle.
